Biblical evidence of the Trinity
I have been asked, “How do you know that there is a Christian trinity ? Where is the proof in the Bible?”
This post comes from CrossExamined.org
The doctrine of the Trinity has come under increasing attack over recent years from a variety of groups. Some of these groups (such as Muslims and Jehovah’s witnesses) deny that this doctrine is even found in Scripture. They are often quick to point out that the word “trinity” is to be found nowhere in the Bible. This is correct. While the phraseology is not found in Scripture, however, the concept most certainly is.
In this article, I want to provide a definition of this important doctrine, explaining what exactly the Trinity is, as well as what is isn’t. I shall then examine the Scriptures to see whether they provide adequate substantiation of this concept. So, what exactly do we mean when we talk about the Trinity? Writing in the early third century, in his Against Praxeas, Tertullian is credited with first employing the words “Trinity”, “person” and “substance” to convey the idea of the Father, Son and Spirit being “one in essence — but not one in person”. Indeed, Tertullian writes, “Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, one essence, not one Person, as it is said, “I and my Father are One,” in respect of unity of substance not singularity of number.”
This concept was established as church orthodoxy at the famous Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325 (see my article here for discussion of the historical background). The Nicene Creed speaks of Christ as “God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father.”
It is this definition that I am going to assume in the discussion that follows. Succinctly, then, the doctrine of the Trinity may be defined as: Within the one being or essence that is God, there exists three co-equal and co-divine distinct persons — namely the Father, Son and Holy Spirit — who share that essence fully and completely. This concept is not to be confused with polytheism, which maintains that there are multiple gods. While orthodox Christianity emphatically holds there to be only one God, we nonetheless understand God to be complex in His unity. The concept is also not to be confused with the ancient heresy of modalism, which maintains that God exists in three different modes. The Son has never been the Father and the Holy Spirit has never been the Son or the Father. Modelism is refuted by the picture given to us in all four gospels (Mt. 3:16-17; Mk. 1:9-11; Lk. 3:21-22; Jn. 1:32-34) in which the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus in the form of a dove and a voice is heard from Heaven “This is my beloved Son. With Him I am well pleased.” Similarly, it should be noted that the Father, Son and Spirit do not each make up merely a third of the Godhead. Rather, each of the three persons is God in the full and complete sense of the word.
Having shown that Scripture emphatically rejects the notion that the Father, Son and Spirit are synonymous persons, only five propositions remain to be demonstrated in order to provide Biblical substantiation for the concept of the Trinity. Those propositions are:
- There is only one eternal God.
- The Father is the eternal God.
- The Son is the eternal God.
- The Holy Spirit is the eternal God.
- The Father, Son and Spirit are not the same person.
Having already demonstrated number 5 (at Jesus’ baptism, the Father, Son and Spirit are clearly distinguished), let’s take a look at 1-4 in turn.
The Bible teaches Monotheism
The Biblical support for monotheism is extremely strong, and supporting references are far too numerous to list here. Nonetheless, let us content ourselves with a few examples.
Deuteronomy 6:4NIV: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.”
Isaiah 43:10-11: “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
Isaiah 44:6-8: “This is what the LORD says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come—yes, let them foretell what will come. Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”
1 Corinthians 8:6: “Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.”
Isaiah 45:5: “I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me.”
The deity of the Father
This is the least controversial of the five points, and many of the verses cited above would suffice to demonstrate it. Indeed, in the high priestly prayer of the Lord Jesus, recorded in John 17, Jesus says to the Father (verse 5), “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” The Father is similarly referred to as God in John 3:16, in which we read, “For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
One could continue in this vein for some time. But since nobody is denying this contention, let us move on to consider the Biblical support for the perfect and complete deity of Christ.
The deity of the Son
The Biblical support for the perfect and complete deity of Christ is similarly very strong. For example, Philippians 2:5-11 states,
“In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to His own advantage; rather, He made Himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!
“Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
According to Jude 1:4, “For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”
Titus 2:13 similarly states that “we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ”.
The apostle Peter similarly addresses his second letter (2 Pt. 1:1) “to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours”.
Colossians 1:15-20 speaks of Jesus as: “The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything He might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross.”
The passage uses the word “firstborn” in this context in the sense that Christ is the heir and all things are His rightful inheritance, not in the sense that He is himself a created being.
Colossians 2:9 similarly asserts that “in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”
Even in the Old Testament, in Isaiah 9:6-7, we read, “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the greatness of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.”
Citation of this passage is sometimes countered by claiming that the passage distinguishes between the “Mighty God” and the “LORD Almighty.” Such an objection is easily refuted, however, when one looks at Isaiah 10:21 and finds the title “Mighty God” being ascribed to Yahweh.
There are many more such references as well. When cultists come to your door, however, they will often attempt to find some wiggle room by crafty manipulations of the Greek. If (like me) you are not well acquainted with Greek, and are thus not competent in demonstrating their abuse of it, this can be quite daunting. There is, however, a means by which you can circumvent such discussions and still persuasively defend the deity of Christ. It is to this that I now turn.
There are numerous occasions in Scripture where titles that are ascribed to Yahweh are also attributed to Christ. One example of this is the title of “the alpha and the omega” or “the first and the last.” This title is ascribed to Yahweh in Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12, as well as in Revelation 1:8. It is attributed to Jesus, however, in Revelation 1:17-18. It is very clear from the context that it is Jesus who is speaking because He subsequently says, “I am the Living One; I was dead and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.” Similarly, Revelation 2:8, in the letter to the Church in Smyrna, says “These are the words of Him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.” This title is also attributed to Jesus in Revelation 21:6, as well as in 22:13. Verse 16 of Revelation 22 makes it very clear that it is Jesus speaking, for He says, “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
A further example is the “I AM” title which Jesus ascribes to Himself in John 8:58 (“before Abraham was born, I am!”). The Greek (ego eimi) uses the very same phraseology used in the Septuagint in reference to Yahweh (e.g. Ex. 3:14; Isa. 43:10). Indeed, the soldiers who come to arrest Jesus in John 18 draw back and fall to the ground upon the very utterance of the words “I AM” from Jesus’ lips. This highlights the theological significance of this phrase. The Jews in John 8 certainly understood what He meant, for they picked up stones to stone Him.
Another self-designation of Jesus in the New Testament is the famous “Son of Man” title, a clear reference to Daniel 7:13-14, in which we read the following: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”
Here, Daniel describes a divine-human figure who would be given authority, glory and sovereign power, and would be worshipped by people of all nations and people of every language. When Jesus claimed to be the Son of Man before the high priest Caiaphas (Mt. 26:64-66), Caiaphas tore his clothes, charged him with blasphemy, and condemned him as “worthy of death.” The reason? Caiaphas new exactly what that title meant — it was a direct claim to deity, a crime punishable by death.
What’s particularly telling about this claim is that the Son of Man is worshipped by all people. Yet worship is to be given only to Yahweh, as we learn in Deuternonomy 6:13. This verse is quoted by Jesus during His temptation in the desert. In Luke 4:8, Jesus rebukes Satan, saying, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’” Furthermore, Isaiah 42:8 says, “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols.”
This leads us to consider yet another of Jesus’ sayings. In John 17:5, Jesus says, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” In addition to His claim to pre-exist creation, Jesus here is also claiming to share the glory of the Father.
John 20:28 reports an incident where, following Jesus’ resurrection, Thomas — upon seeing the nail prints in His hands and feet — worships Him calling Him “My Lord and my God!” Jesus nowhere rebukes this act of worship. This stands in contrast to when John fell at the feet of an angel and tried to worship him (Rev. 22:8-9) and was strongly rebuked: “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”
We also read in Hebrews 1:6, “And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says, “Let all God’s angels worship Him.”
Hebrews 1 contrasts the relationship between the Father and the angels with the relationship between the Father and the Son. In verses 7-12, we read the following:
In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.” But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”
The writer of Hebrews here quotes two Old Testament passages (Ps. 45:6-7 and Ps. 102:25-27 respectively), the latter of which clearly refer to Yahweh, and applies them to Jesus.
A further text, with which we have regrettably come to be so familiar that we often miss its full significance is 1 Peter 3:15. Indeed, the true significance of this verse is best seen when read in the context of verse 14 which precedes it. Here’s the text of 1 Peter 3:14-16. Take particular note of the underlined text.
“But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.”
Verse 14 in fact contains a quotation (the underlined text) from Isaiah 8:12, in which we read, “Do not call conspiracy all that this people call conspiracy, and do not fear what they fear, nor be in dread.” Verse 15 of 1 Peter 3 continues the quotation into verse 13 of Isaiah 8, but with a subtle change. Isaiah 8:13 reads, “But the Lord of hosts, Him you shall honor as holy.” Compare this to the start of 1 Peter 3:15: “…but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy.” Peter has replaced “the Lord of hosts” from Isaiah 8:13 with “Christ the Lord”, asserting that it is He whom we are to regard as Holy. In so doing, the Apostle Peter has here effectively identified Jesus as being of the same essence as Yahweh, another Biblical proof of the deity of Christ.
One final example I will consider is found in John 12:37-41:
Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: “Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them.” Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.
Here, John quotes two passages from the Old Testament and asserts that Isaiah said these things when he saw the glory of Jesus. The first of these passages is from the famous suffering servant passage of Isaiah 53. The second of those refers to Isaiah 6, in which Isaiah beheld the glory of Yahweh seated on His throne in the temple.
Again, in this vein one might continue for a long time. But let us now turn our attention to the status of the Holy Spirit.
The deity of the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is another doctrine which has come under attack, with some groups (e.g. the Jehovah’s witnesses) denying the personhood of the Holy Spirit and asserting instead that it is merely an impersonal active force. In this section, I aim to demonstrate that this view is untenable and contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture.
One very clear reference to the deity and personhood of the Holy Spirit occurs in Acts 5:1-10, in which Ananias and Sapphira are charged with lying to the Holy Spirit and struck down dead as a consequence. Peter rebukes Ananias, saying, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit…You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” Here, not only does the personhood of the Holy Spirit become apparent (one cannot lie to an impersonal entity), but the Holy Spirit is also equated with God Himself.
Another example lies in Acts 13:1-3, in which the Holy Spirit speaks and calls out Paul and Barnabas, sending them out for the work ordained for them. In this passage, the Holy Spirit clearly assumes divine authority. We read,
Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.
A further passage we might look to is Ephesians 4:30, in which we are instructed “do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.” Here, the Holy Spirit displays attributes of personhood — one cannot grieve an impersonal force. The Holy Spirit is also identified as a personal agent in Isaiah 63:10, where we are told that the Israelites in the wilderness grieved God’s Holy Spirit which had been placed in the midst of them.
The Holy Spirit is endowed with a will in 1 Corinthians 12:11: “All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and He distributes them to each one, just as He determines.” 1 Corinthians 2:10-11 also ascribes knowledge to the Holy Spirit: “The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”
Mark 3:29 indicates that it is even possible to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit! Only God is able to be blasphemed.
Psalm 139:7-10 also indicates that the Spirit of God is omnipresent: “Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, If I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.”
We also learn of the omnipresence of the Holy Spirit in John 14:17, where we are told that the Spirit that Christ will send will dwell within believers. Only the attribute of omnipresence could allow the Spirit to be with believers all over the world at the same time.
We also learn in Hebrews 9:14 that the Holy Spirit is eternal (“Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God”).
Conclusion
To conclude, the concept of the Trinity — the proposition that God, though being one in essence, is comprised of three divine persons — is thoroughly grounded in Scripture. The Bible attests to the complete and perfect deity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Though the Father, Son and Spirit are distinct and non-synonymous, the doctrine does not violate the law of non-contradiction since theology concerning the Trinity maintains that God is one in a sense and three in a different sense. Christians can thus confidently assert and defend the Triune nature of God, a doctrine extremely unlikely to have arisen as a human invention in the context of monotheistic Judaism.
Acknowledgement
This post comes from CrossExamined.org
Posted February 2022
Also see: The Trinity is unique to Christianity
George's Journal 
Great work
Keep it coming
Clive A
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February 2, 2022 at 6:32 am
Thanks Clive,
Best wishes to you all in South Africa!
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February 2, 2022 at 6:42 am
Dear Sir,
Your teaching is not biblicaly correct ! There is no mention regarding trinity in the Bible. Not by accident it is written that the great is the Mystery of Godliness. The “invention” of trinity is on stage since 325 A.D. That’s a catholic (human) invention, not biblical truth. “Made in” this Conucil of Nicea – Constantin and his company (check availble sources regarding this council on internet).
And what about DEUT 4:6 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD ? That ‘s the chief corner stone of all The Truth !
Regarding One God you have many proofs in Old Testament (Deut 6:4, Deut 3:29, Iz 43:10, 2Sam 7:22, ..) and also in New Testament ! Read James 2:19 or 1Kor 8:4, ! I am not surprised that our brothers Jews offended by “western teologians” with their invention of trinity.
It is a mystery, read it ! As it is written in 1TIM 3,16:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
And as it is a mystery, it is not revealed to all, just to those who seeks the Truth (as is commanded to all true Christians). And Rom 1:19-20 answers it, that It is possible to understand this Mystery. And how many thrones are in The Heavens in Revelation ? Three or one (Rev 3 and so on) ?
Think about that. 1TIM 3:16. As it is the Great Mystery of Godliness (as It is) – the Truth , there is an opposite, a false lie that Paul describes as the mystery of iniquity.
Read in 2Thes 2:7, read it: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Simple said, Mystery of Godliness is that God is One and mystery of iniquity that God are three.
I am a teologian, just simple believer of Jeus Christ, but I rebuke you, repent and do not teach the mystery of iniquity !
May the Only True God reveals you this Mystery !
Jaroslav
Banska Bystrica, Slovakia
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February 5, 2022 at 6:58 pm
Hi Jaroslav,
My name is Thomas Murphy. I refered George to this article and personally wrote a related one (https://georgesjournal.net/2022/02/01/the-trinity-is-unique-to-christianity/).
Thank you for your comment. I commend your zeal wanting to defend God’s glory and honour as you understand it.
I could take time to respond to your comments and we could then discuss them. However, I am not sure you are ready to genuinely interact. You quote scripture that is discussed in the above article as if we ignore it. Further, you seem to rebuke teaching that is not found in the above article; In fact you rebuke teaching that is already contradicted by the article.
If you wish to fully read and interact with this material, I am glad to discuss it.
God bless.
Tom
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February 6, 2022 at 9:30 pm
You yourself say that the Biblical support for monotheism is extremely strong, and supporting references are far too numerous to list in your article, though you still keep believing i three gods instead of accepting that the God Who does not tell lies is the Only One true God and that Jesus is His begotten beloved son like God Himself told.
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April 3, 2023 at 1:36 am
Hi Marcus,
Thank you for interacting.
Can I humbly submit to you a few points to consider?
1) Belief in The Trinity is emphatically NOT belief in three gods. If you think that belief in the Trinity is belief in three gods, then it seems that you do not yet understand what The Trinity is and/or have misunderstood the above article.
2) Having made point (1), I add that strong, biblical support for monotheism is perfectly compatible with belief in The Trinity; and not just compatible with it, but monotheism is a foundational integral, inseparable aspect of The Trinity.
3) Finally, you are correct that Biblical support for monotheism is extremely strong and that supporting biblical references are too numerous to cite exhaustively. However, this does not mean that The Trinity is untrue. Even if there were ten thousand verses of scripture affirming the full deity of God the Father and only one verse affirming the full-deity of The Son and/or The Holy Spirit, we must accept it. All Scripture is God breathed (2 Tim 2:16, see also, Romans 15:4, Hebrews 4:12, Psalm 19:7). We cannot abandon belief in The Trinity because in scripture God confronts us with his character, and this character is far richer and more wonderful than a simple monadic vision of God.
4) Simple monadic-monotheism (vs Trinitarian-monotheism) does seem simpler and more logical prima facie. *However* as we begin to reflect on it more deeply and try to square it with truths plainly taught in scripture, we find that we are forced to draw contradictory conclusions from scripture if we unwaveringly hold onto a monadic-monotheistic vision of God.
We uphold The Trinity because God has revealed himself as Triune in the scriptures. We uphold The Trinity because all other teachings of scripture are more magnificent and wonderful when we meet the Triune God behind them.
God bless.
Regards, Tom
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April 4, 2023 at 8:44 pm
Considering you saying the Trinity is not about three gods, but in that Trinity the personalities ave different attributes. The Trinitarians also do speak about 1. God the Father, 2. god the son and 3. God the Holy Spirit, what makes 1+1+1=3, certainly because they are all three very different from each other.
The God of the Bible also says no man can see Him and live, though many saw Jesus Christ and stayed alive. Either God did not tell the truth, the same as He would not have told the truth when He said Jesus was His only begotten beloved son.
As you yourself seem to understand that there are not really indications of the Trinity you still prefer to believe and uphold The Trinity “because God has revealed himself as Triune in the scriptures” but this would mean that there are lots of contradictions in the Holy Scriptures which (you agree) are given to mankind for our education and are inspired by God Himself. But That God of the Bible is a God of Clarity and Order and would not confuse us with intricate contradictions, is it not?
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April 4, 2023 at 9:16 pm
Hi Marcus,
Thank you again for your thoughtful interactions.
First a minor corrective: You have the impression I “understand that there are not really indications of the Trinity.” This is not accurate, there is abundant scriptural evidence for Trinitarian belief. I merely used “ten thousand verses vs one verse” as a hypothetical illustration.
Now to address your comments:
In your first paragraph you state:
“Considering you saying the Trinity is not about three gods, but in that Trinity the personalities … Trinitarians also do speak about 1. God the Father, 2. god the son and 3. God the Holy Spirit, what makes 1+1+1=3 ….”
Again, I humbly suggest that you do not properly understand what The Trinity is. Saying God is a Trinity is to say that there is one being/one entity/one essence/one substance that is properly God AND that within this one divine essence there subsists three distinct centers of consciousness/three persons who ALL fully possess that one divine essence/being and are inseparably united within it.
When we talk of The Trinity, there is only ONE “WHAT” that is God AND there are THREE “WHOs” that are God. “1+1+1=3” is a quip I have heard many times, but it misrepresents the concept.
From scripture we can clearly draw several solid conclusions:
1) There is just One God.
2) God (the Father) clearly claims to be God and shown to be God
3) Jesus claimed to be God, claimed prerogatives and rights for himself that only properly belong to God and is declared to be God
4) The Holy spirit is attributed with Divinity (being God) AND personhood
5) Jesus is not The Father, Jesus is not the Holy Spirit and The Holy Spirit is not the Father
The only way to combine these facts without saying that scripture lies or creates contradictions is to accept that God is a Trinity; One God comprised of distinct three persons that eternally subsist together within in the one divine substance.
There must be differences between the persons because they are distinct. There are differences in how the three persons relate to each other. Different persons are observed to be most active in different passages of scripture.
Now in your second paragraph:
You point out that “The God of the Bible also says no man can see Him and live, though many saw Jesus Christ and stayed alive.”
I would caution you to rethink your interpretation of this verse.
First consider the verse you quote “no man can see Him and live” Exodus 33:20. Immediately before this verse, in the same book of scripture, we read: “So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend” Exodus 33:11. Or consider Genesis 32:30 (Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”). What of Genesis 2-3 where Adam and Eve met with God in the Garden. Consider Isaiah was called (“my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”; Isaiah 6:5). Does Scripture lie in these passages? Did God lie? OR is it only with regards to Jesus’s divinity that you find the notion of “seeing God” problematic? Does it make God a liar if Jesus is God and people saw him and lived, but God is not a liar when Adam, Eve, Jacob, Moses and Isaiah saw him and lived?
And Finally
“God of the Bible is a God of Clarity and Order and would not confuse us with intricate contradictions, is it not?” (you quote 1 Corinthians 14:33)
First, note that the Corinthians passage refers to order in conduct between believers during worship.
Second, please do not add to scripture: the verse is simply “For God is not a God of disorder but of peace”. Clarity is not mentioned.
Finally, I point out that “order” is not the same as “easily understood.” Now, if you claim God cannot be unclear sometimes, what do you make of Matthew 13:13, John 9:39, 2 Peter 3:16-18, Deuteronomy 29:4, Isaiah 6:9, Isaiah 29:10 etc.? Clearly, when God speaks in scripture he can sometimes be unclear and/or difficult to understand.
I would simply ask you to consider that “Clarity and Order” are not always the best indicators of truth. They help make simple models in our minds. But reality is not a model and can be very difficult to make sense of sometimes. The God of the Bible is so vast and great that “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain” him (1 Kings 8:27) and he is the source of all reality (Colossians 1:16). He will always be difficult to comprehend for men like us. Even when he reveals himself, we can’t always fully comprehend or search out his ways. (Job 36:26, Psalms 139:17).
May I respectfully suggest that perhaps your conception of God is too small. Maybe you have tried to confine God into to neat little models that retain “clarity.” Perhaps you need to meet God in his word and come to know how vast, complex, intricate and Wonderful his full being is; his Trinitarian being….
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April 5, 2023 at 8:42 pm
YOu say ” there subsists three distinct centers of consciousness/three persons who ALL fully possess that one divine essence/being and are inseparably united within it.” though the Bible tells us that God is was and always shall be the same. But as a God Who is a Spirit (having no flesh, bones and blood) ,no man can see coming to earth as a man (having flesh, bones and blood) been seen by many people that would make God being another identity and having another form than before in heaven.You also say “There must be differences between the persons because they are distinct. ” but that would be in contrast with the Alpha and Omega being the same for ever.
The texts you mentionfrom the Old Testament should be seen in Hebrew context, but is still in different languages the same. When we say “I have seen” that does not have to mean we literally saw someone or something. It is by the wonders and the work of the hands of God, that we can see how God creates everything and how we can come to know how He works.
Also in Christ we got an example of his heavenly Father. Please also do not forget we all are created in the image of God and as such people can see elements of God in other people.
Also when we come to pray, are actions are one of face to face with God, though we do not actually really see God. When we are on our own, we can talk to God “face to face”.
Did you find the Bible quotes I published on my site concerning the concept of Jesus versus God?
You furthermore say “Jesus claimed to be God, claimed prerogatives and rights for himself that only properly belong to God and is declared to be God” but where in the New Testament would Jesus ever claimed to be God?
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April 6, 2023 at 12:53 am
Hi Marcus,
Forgive my very slow response. I have taken a lot of family time over the school holidays.
Thank you again for your thoughtful responses.
I did find the quotes published on your site. I very much appreciate your attempts to systematise scripture on the topic. I do love systematic theology.
I see nothing in the verses you quote that contradict The Trinity. However, your commentary demonstrates you do not accurately understand The Trinity and Jesus’s incarnation. Examples include: 1) when you say “It seems very schizophrenic when a person [Christ] would talk all the time to himself and even pray to himself” OR 2) “God would be eternal He can not die, though Christ died,”
Perhaps our conversation can improve your understanding. I am not saying I will change your mind, but you may at least come to accurately understand the view you reject (You can’t properly reject what you don’t properly understand).
Now, I agree that Old Testament texts “should be seen in Hebrew context”. But this qualification won’t solve all difficulties for you. For example, Jacob did not simply see God in “wonders and the work of the hands of God” or see “how God creates everything and … came to know how He works.” Jacob physically wrestled; he sustained a hip injury and limped for the rest of his life. (Gen 32:25 and Gen 32:32). We could discuss the exact nature of these encounters (theophanies), but I don’t think you can so easily wave them away with “Hebrew context”.
Now I press back using your interpretive principles. You object that “differences between the persons because they are distinct … would be in contrast with the Alpha and Omega being the same for ever.” Taken in {Hebrew context}, God being the “Alpha and Omega being the same for ever” means he is the foundation/beginning (alpha) and the goal/end (omega) of all things and that his personality (faithfulness, love, justice etc) are always and forever the same. But this does not necessarily mean he never changes in any way, at all, period. To interpret “being the same for ever” with such wooden literalism would have us make God to be completely impotent. He could not do anything, because to do something means to experience a succession of moments in our being; to have a “before” and an “after”, i.e. to change. Before God created the universe, he had not created but now he has; he was once all that existed, now something outside him exists. Pushing this further, consider that God ‘repented’ of his decision to punish Israel after intercession from Moses (Exodus 32), and this occurs repeatedly in scripture regarding Israel and its leaders (e.g. 2 Chronicles 12:12, Jeremiah 26:19, Amos 7, Jonah 3 [Nineveh in this case])
, that God says he “does new things” (Isaiah 43:18-19). If all the above is possible, why could not Jesus, as an eternal member of the Trinitarian God-head, “do a new thing” and although he was “existing in the form of God… empty Himself, take the form of a servant, be made in human likeness. And be found in appearance as a man, and humble Himself and become obedient to death — even death on a cross.” (Philippians 2:6-8)
Now you ask “where in the New Testament would Jesus ever claimed to be God?” Please refer to the post above to begin exploring this exact claim.
Now I present a new challenge to you: Consider the following premises taken from Scripture:
1) God is love and loves human beings (John 3:16,1 John 4:8 etc.)
2) According to scripture, the *greatest* demonstration of love is to lay down one’s life for one’s friends [the ones you love] (John 15:13)
3) God demonstrated his love for us by sending Jesus to die on our behalf (Romans 4:25, 5:6-8 and 8:32, Ephesians 2:15-16, Galatians 4:3-5, 1 John 4:8-10 etc.)
God is love and loves human beings (point 1.) and he demonstrated this by sending Jesus to die on our behalf (point 2.). However, Jesus demonstrated his love by dying for us himself, and this is the*greatest* act of love (point 3.).
Does God love us less than Jesus? The answer is YES If God is not a Trinity and Jesus in not a member of the God-head. But if God is A Trinity and Jesus is one of the three persons of God, then the answer is NO, because they are all participants in the same act of love shown to mankind. If God is a Trinity, then in the act of the atonement God makes no third party suffer to achieve atonement. Nobody but God contributes to the work of salvation, God is the giver and gift all at once in one supreme act of love.
I hope you are keeping well.
Regards, Tom
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April 22, 2023 at 10:50 pm
Dear Tom,
Thank you very much for your thoughtful reply and giving insight in your and Trinitarian way of thinking.
The love of God for the human beings is not less than the love of Christ for his fellow man . To have more love than Jesus would not have to mean that He can not be part of the Trinity, rather the reverse.
We may not forget that God is the Giver of everything. He is also the giver of His beloved son and accepted his payment or ransom for all the sins of mankind.
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April 24, 2023 at 11:45 pm
Hi Marcus
Thank you for your courteous replies. It is commendable. Many people become disrespectful when they have disagreements online. You have not.
I agree wholeheartedly God loves us, and gives all things; including the gift of his son for our redemption. But you miss my point.
The 3 facts I gave from scripture leave us with a trilemma. We must choose one of the three options of this trilemma. Either:
1) At some point scripture is incorrect and one or more of the verses I gave proving my three facts are wrong.
2) Jesus Is separate from God the Father and his love is greater than the Father’s because to give one’s own life for another is the *greatest* (superlative) act of love, and this is something Jesus did do but God the Father did not.
3) Jesus’s love is equal to the Father’s because they are all members of the one Trinitarian being, meaning that God gave both *of* and *from* himself when Jesus went to the cross to secure our salvation.
I would appreciate learning how you resolve this trilemma while still affirming the facts I presented from scripture.
I have a second challenge for you. read John 1:3:
“All things came into being by Him [the Word, i.e. Jesus], and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being”
So, everything that exists can be divided into two categories:
1) things that came into being (i.e. they were created and began to exist) or
2) things that did not come into being (i.e. they have no beginning and have existed for eternity)
Now it is obvious that only God belongs in category 2 and all created things belong in category 1.
In which category does Jesus belong? If Jesus is not God, he must be in category 1. But John 1:3 tells us that Jesus created “all things that came into being” (also add 1 Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 1:2 in support). But if Jesus is in category 1, this would mean Jesus had to create himself before he existed. But no non-existent thing can create itself and bring itself into existence. If you want to say that Jesus is not God, then you seem to have a dilemma: Either:
1) Deny Jesus is God and put him in category 1, but then you must also say Jesus created himself (something logically absurd) OR
2) Say scripture that is wrong in saying “all things that came into being were created by Jesus”.
However, if God is a Trinity then Jesus is one being with God the Father and is in category 2. In this scenario, Jesus exists as a person of God, never coming into being but existing eternally, and he created all things that came into being.
It would be interesting to get your take on this point also.
I hope you are well. I shall keep you in my prayers.
Regards, Tom.
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April 28, 2023 at 11:59 am
Dear Tom
We as human beings have formed our own ideas about what would be the most lovable act to do.
Imagine yourself as parent being under the Nazis or at present times being confronted by some one who want to kill some one of your beloved. Would you let yourself be killed or fake your death, because you can not be killed when you would be an eternal being. Or would you out of love for the many children you have let one child give himself as a ransom price for all the rest.
I would agree with you that Jesus must have had a very great love for us, to do such a thing. This also knowing that Jesus could and really did die, whilst in case Jesus would be God, no man can do God anything (according the Scriptures) and God as an eternal Being has no knowledge of death.
You writing ” Jesus Is separate from God the Father and his love is greater than the Father’s because to give one’s own life for another is the *greatest* (superlative) act of love, and this is something Jesus did do but God the Father did not.” is for what I would go. Jesus clearly being an other being than God. Though his love should not be greater than the love of God. I do agree that God, in the Garden of Eden could have solved the problem straight ahead. He did not have the need for a blood offering. (Find proof of that in the Old Testament). But God want to give the human beings the opportunity to prove they could keep to the rules of God and respect HIm for Who he is and for what He has done for mankind.
The curse of sin was given for the fact that man doubted the right for God to be the Major Ruler Who knows everything and can do everything; The first human beings wanted to be equal with God. Though Jesus never wanted nor claimed to be equal with God. That is just one of the reason why he can be our saviour, because by his attitude he gave us an example how to come in the clear with God.
From the Bible there is no instance where we should get it from that “Jesus’s love is equal to the Father’s” and even less that they (Jesus, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit) would all be members of the one Trinitarian being, meaning that God gave both *of* and *from* himself when Jesus went to the cross to secure our salvation.
What would be the winning part for God, faking His death at a cross or at a wooden stake (like Jesus gave himself at the stake, and really died)?
By giving himself as a lamb for God, Jesus, who received authority from God, with his blood whitewashed us from sin and gave us the possibility to come to his heavenly Father, through him, him being a mediator being seated now at the right side of God, helping us as a mediator between God and us.
“And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.” (Mt 28:18 ASV)
“and he gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.” (Joh 5:27 ASV)
“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” (1Co 11:3 ASV)
“And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.” (1Co 15:28 ASV)
“Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Mt 26:64 ASV)
“And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” (Mr 14:62 ASV)
“So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.” (Mr 16:19 ASV)
“For David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,” (Lu 20:42 ASV)
“But from henceforth shall the Son of man be seated at the right hand of the power of God.” (Lu 22:69 ASV)
“25 For David saith concerning him, I beheld the Lord always before my face; For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; Moreover my flesh also shall dwell in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades, Neither wilt thou give thy Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou madest known unto me the ways of life; Thou shalt make me full of gladness with thy countenance. 29 Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day. 30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set [one] upon his throne; 31 he foreseeing [this] spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear. 34 For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet. 36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.” (Ac 2:25-36 ASV)
“Him did God exalt with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.” (Ac 5:31 ASV)
“55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.” (Ac 7:55-56 ASV)
“For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, [himself] man, Christ Jesus,” (1Ti 2:5 ASV)
“and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than [that of] Abel.” (Heb 12:24 ASV)
Jesus did not take God His seat. In case Jesus would be God, he naturally would be seated at the seat of God, but then he would not be a mediator for us, because than we could speak straight ahead to God, something Jesus made possible with his ransom price. But for the judgement we can use an advocate, somebody who very well knows our situation and can feel with our weaknesses. Jesus as a man of flesh and blood has had all the experiences we have to go through as well, growing up, learning all things, having feelings for other people, loving and caring, he all endured it. Therefore he knows and can feel with us, to be our advocate in front of his and our heavenly father.
To deny Jesus is God would, according to you, put Jesus in category 1, by which “things that came into being (i.e. they were created and began to exist)” but then would have to mean that I would say Jesus created himself (something logically absurd) which as you say does not make sense. But Jesus never “created” something like his heavenly Father did, though he is the creator of the New World. Like an architect is a creator but never the Creator God, Jesus created a new possibility to come to God. Jesus prepared the way to the small gate of the Kingdom of God. Because God accepted the ransom offering of Christ, we received the grace of salvation. We can take it or ignore it. Depending on our accepting or rejecting that salvation we shall find the possibility of the “new life”.
As the first Adam sinned, we may call Jesus the Second Adam, the firstborn of the New Creation.
That “all things that came into being were created by Jesus” you should understand as the opening which was made by Christ Jesus. The world received a curse and as such the paradise did not come to completion. But by Jesus the gates are open again for all people who want to recognise the God of Christ as their God. In such way Jesus created or moulded the way to paradise and a possibility to live endlessly (note I do not use ‘eternally’, because we all shall have a birth and a death, even when at the end times there shall be people who would not have died by Judgment day.)
By the choice the first man and woman made, we got death over us, but by the death of Christ we got life over us. As such, Jesus is the maker or creator of new life, making us (or those who want to follow him) also into new creatures.
“For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” (1Co 15:22 ASV)
“So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit.” (1Co 15:45 ASV)
“Wherefore if any man is in Christ, [he is] a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.” (2Co 5:17 ASV)
“For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.” (Ga 6:15 ASV)
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I would nowhere claim the Scriptures to being wrong or contradicting itself. Those people who find contradictions in the Bible are mostly those who follow the doctrines of their church and as such find verses which seem to contradict with what their church is teaching. For them, it is often too difficult to see the difference between church or human teaching and Biblical teaching.
We always should go by Biblical teachings and compare the verses in such understanding.
Wishing you a nice sunny day,
Marcus
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May 3, 2023 at 10:27 pm
Hi Marcus,
Great to hear from you Again. We have had plenty of sunshine here in Sydney, but it has been getting cold.
I think you still misunderstand the dilemmas I present. Every fact in them are from scripture; none are “man-conceived .” I gave the scripture that tells us the most loving act I described (John 15:13). And we cannot say that Jesus did not create in the same way God the Father did. Scripture could not be clearer:
*All things* were made through him; and *without him* was *not anything* made that hath been made. (John 1:3 ASV)
16 for in him [Jesus] were *all things* created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; *all things have been created through him*, and unto him; 17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. (Colossians 1:16-17, ASV)
There is no distinction between prior/earlier creations and new ones. Scripture simply states that there is *not anything* that has been made that was not made by him.
Now, the dilemmas demonstrate that if we choose to say that God is not a Trinity and Jesus is not one-being with God the Father then the logical implications of these dilemmas force us to ALSO affirm that something absurd is true (such as Jesus creating himself and God not being the most loving being) OR that scripture is in error.
To be clear, I am not saying that you *want* to say either of these things. I am simply demonstrating that if you reject the Trinity, then the unavoidable logical entailment of this is one of those options (saying an absurdity is true OR scripture is in error). As you yourself said, “We always should go by Biblical teachings and compare the verses in such understanding.” Amen! And it seems to me the only way to affirm all scripture teaches, without doing violence to it in our interpretation, is to accept God as revealed in it, a Trinity.
Now I completely agree with your position that Jesus is our mediator, through whom we come to the Father. Lets explore this further.
You point out that Jesus makes a perfect mediator between God and man because he understands all our weaknesses; he relates to us. At this point you are so close to understanding the incarnation. Perhaps if you understood the incarnation thoroughly, you may also be able to understand the death of Jesus (Jesus as God) without difficulty and then your problems with the Trinity would dissolve.
You are correct that Jesus is uniquely able to be our mediator because he has a lived experience of all our weaknesses; he can perfectly relate to us and therefore perfectly represent us before God. But you need to push your line of thought further. A mediator advocates for two parties. If Jesus is not divine, he cannot approach God and cannot represent God to us in the mediation process. He can’t mediate between us and God. It is doubtful he could even be his own representative before God.
You are also correct that Jesus secures our salvation by “his blood that whitewashed us from sin.” But consider the nature of sin. Our sins are ultimately against God, who is infinite in holiness and justice. This means that our sins are of infinite consequence. Now if Jesus is not God, but is a created, finite being, how could his sacrifice on the cross ever be nearly sufficient to cover even one of my sins that is of infinite severity? (remember, each and every sin is an personal affront to an infinite God). If Jesus is only a finite being, he cannot adequately pay for Just one of my sins. Let alone all of my sins and certainly not for the sins of the whole world. Only an infinite being could pay that infinite price; a being who is “existing in the form of God” (Philippians 2:6 ASV) and is “the very image of his [God’s] substance” (Hebrews 1:3 ASV) could pay such a price.
I hope you are keeping well.
Regards, Tom
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May 10, 2023 at 10:59 am
I appreciate it very much that you want to offer your thoughts and open the way to think about those very important matters.
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April 6, 2023 at 12:54 am
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